Jesus of Nazareth

Published on July 19, 2006 By AsWayOpens In Current Events

What are you thinking as you look down at the bombs?
What would you say if you were here?

The bus load of poor workers promised a job in Iraq, only to be blown up.
The mothers looking for their children's bodies in the buildings bombed in Lebanon.
What do you to say to a young, scared soldier fighting a "war" in Iraq for a country run by fools and criminals?
And the list goes on and on.

Nazareth was bombed today.

You walk by my side through every day.
What do I say to you?

Comments (Page 2)

Adventure-Dude

on Jul 20, 2006

Most people believe that the Zionist movement of the time would have never gotten the support they needed to be given Israel were it not for what Jews suffered at the hands of the Nazis. KFC, would you then say that the Holocaust was in God's plan, too?

Wasn't that the whole motive noted by Albert Pike, Baker?

bakerstreet

on Jul 20, 2006

You realize of course, KFC, that your ideas there fit right into the beliefs of the Westburough Baptist Church's ideology, right? There's a glaring problem with that belief. If our free will is actually "God's Plan" then God must also have planned who is and who isn't going to hell, right?

Yet, Jesus in the parable of the sheep said it wasn't His will that any should perish. The Bible says it again in 2 Peter. But if all things happen because of God's plan, then it MUST be His will that some people are 'lost'. So if Hitler was just acting out God's plan, then it could also be said that all those people who reject God are too.

So in the end you present a model wherein there is no free will at all. We are all just tinker toys being punished for playing our part in God's design. After all, He knew who was who "from the foundations of the world" right?

This is why biblical inerrancy is a dangerous thing, in my opinion. People will come to a lot of, frankly, sick conclusions in order to make sure it is all in agreement. If this god you worship KFC is no better than a child playing with toys, why do you worship him?

"Wasn't that the whole motive noted by Albert Pike, Baker?"

I'll be honest with you, AD, every time I see that name I wince. There's such a mythology that revolves around him that it is hard to tell what is true and what isn't. I've seen a lot attributed to him that people claim that there is no proof that he wrote.

I'll say that a lot of people who are racists use that excuse to hate Jews while still not hating 'God's Chosen People'. I've argued with Muslims online who claim that they aren't anti-Semitic, since Muslims are technically 'semites', and that even if they do hate Israelis they don't hate Jews because the Israelis now aren't really Jews, they are zionists.

People will go a long way to justify things with their religion. That's the problem I have with what KFC has posed here. It is a result of making a whole lot of conflicting stuff in the Bible sync up. A chain of logic like that can lead to some pretty despicable places in the hands of people who want to justify things like the holocaust.

Adventure-Dude

on Jul 20, 2006

I've seen a lot attributed to him that people claim that there is no proof that he wrote.

I understand the wincing in regards to this.

A chain of logic like that can lead to some pretty despicable places in the hands of people who want to justify things like the holocaust.

The problem is right there. You CANNOT justify the holocaust. You CANNOT justify what Stalin did either. We as human beings do not have the capacity to understand such things. All we do understand is that there is a Good and a Bad going at it whichever you believe to be.

I'll say that a lot of people who are racists use that excuse to hate Jews while still not hating 'God's Chosen People'. I've argued with Muslims online who claim that they aren't anti-Semitic, since Muslims are technically 'semites', and that even if they do hate Israelis they don't hate Jews because the Israelis now aren't really Jews, they are zionists.

I think this can be easily understood by definitions. which is semantics not semitics.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Jul 20, 2006

I'm not even in the same book with those folks Baker. They are all about hate...I am not. Not even close. What do you know of the argument of freewill vs election?

So in the end you present a model wherein there is no free will at all.

How much free will did Adam and Eve have to be placed in the garden? How much free will did you have to be born into the family you now belong to? Or born at all?

I believe in both freewill and election. But I do not belive we have a choice in our birth, physical or spiritual. Jesus said himself....I have chosen you, you did not choose me.

What did he mean by that?

Yet, Jesus in the parable of the sheep said it wasn't His will that any should perish. The Bible says it again in 2 Peter. But if all things happen because of God's plan, then it MUST be His will that some people are 'lost'

no it's not his wish. We are all lost and we all are on our way to perishing that's why he reaches down and saves us. Do you think he saves us all? Is Hitler saved? Is Judas?

Keep in mind...we are all blinded with sin...born that way.

Do you think maybe you may have a problem with a Sovereign God who has control over his creation?

bakerstreet

on Jul 21, 2006

"I'm not even in the same book with those folks Baker. They are all about hate...I am not."

I dunno, it sounds pretty close to the same to me. According to them you can't be saved unless it is in God's plan for you to be saved, and he isn't just planning for everyone to be. Granted, they limit the list to their own church, but hey, yours is the same thing with a different list, right?

"What do you know of the argument of freewill vs election? "

Every discussion I have ever been party to concerning it ends in "Well they do seem to conflict, but we know that they can't. We just have to accept that God's mind is beyond ours and we just can't with our mortal mindrationalize the two, but by faith we know it all works out."

Which is a load to me, and just an escuse to say that a conflict in the Bible isn't really conflict. If it said 5+5 = 40, you could say the same thing. Sure, God can know what is going to happen because God would be able to see anywhere in time He wants. That's not predestination, though. When you start saying he's already CHOSEN what's going to happen to you, then the damned are in hell because he chose them to be.

At that point I'd have to just accept that the God I worship isn't the same god you are describing. The god of predestination is a pagan, anthropomorphic, bronze-age god that plays with his people and armies like toys and strikes down people for trying to keep the ark from turning over. Not my cup of tea.

"We are all lost and we all are on our way to perishing that's why he reaches down and saves us. Do you think he saves us all? Is Hitler saved? Is Judas?"

The Bible basically says that Judas was a pawn to enable Christ's resurrection. You said yourself you believe the holocaust was part of God's plan. Frankly it makes me a little ill to just repeat that sentence, but in the end you'd have no reason to suspect you wouldn't be rubbing elbows with either of them in heaven, since they were just being about God's business and all, right?

I guess every project has a few people who don't work well with others.

"Do you think maybe you may have a problem with a Sovereign God who has control over his creation?"

No, I have a problem with people than can even embrace the holocaust as part of God's plan just so they can make their irrational idea of biblical inerrancy work out. Claiming your interpretation of creation to be God's truth is blasphemous enough if you ask me, but claiming that the wrongs that happen in the world are part of God's plan is associating him with evil to validate a book.

You wanna talk about relativism? There's not a liberal Christian or Atheist that walks the earth that is more of a moral relativist than a biblical literalist. They can call good bad, right wrong, evil good, whatever they need to say in order to fix any supposed conflict in the Bible.

No, your ideas look a LOT like the Westburough Baptist Church to me. You have a problem with their hate, but to me it seems far more strange to say what they say with a smile and love in your voice. Such a philosophy makes God into a sociopath who loves his creation and predestins horror and hell for the majority of it.

You and EoIC have a lot in common, after all. He's just honest about it.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Jul 21, 2006

Baker, by your comments you are right. We do not worship the same God. My God is loving, compassionate and faithful. He is a God of second and third chances. He is the lover of my soul. He gave his life for me. He is always there even when I'm not there for him. He's proven himself over and over to me and my family.

God is not the one who got mankind in all this trouble. Satan did. Or do you not believe in him either? Satan is a liar, and accuser of God right from the beginning. He's in his heyday right now. His job is to break off communication between us and God. One way is his word and the other is prayer. That's what he concentrates on. Break off communication. We are like an army in the battle. If we lose contact with the commander, we lose our way. That's what his goal is. He is the direct opposite of God...maybe you're getting the two confused?

So we are all doomed as Paul wrote in Romans. We have ALL gone astray. None seeks after God, not one. But in his loving kindkness and grace, yes he reaches down and plucks us out from the sea of humanity, breathes life into us and sets us on our feet. For that you condemn God? Why? Because he doesn't save everybody?

I am not like the Westboro wackos. My heart grieves for those around me that don't know Christ. I don't have a smile on my face as you suppose. Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they didn't get it. I also weep over those that don't get it and I pray. But I also realize it's not my problem. I am only responsible for what he's given me to do and converting people is not one of my jobs.

with either of them in heaven, since they were just being about God's business and all, right?

no as Jesus would say....they were about their father's business.....and it isn't the same father that Jesus had.

Ionolast

on Jul 21, 2006

Herein lies the stupidity of religion.

MythicalMino

on Jul 21, 2006

Herein lies the stupidity of religion.

And herein lies the utter "brilliance" of Iconoclast....with nothing to say other than a idiotic statement of insult....

bakerstreet

on Jul 21, 2006

"God is not the one who got mankind in all this trouble. Satan did. Or do you not believe in him either?"

How does that make sense though when you say that all this evil stuff is part of God's plan? You've implied that Adam and Eve didn't have any choice but to be placed in the Garden of Eden with a tree that would bring this on all of us. You've said that Hitler's evil was part of God's plan. The Bible itself tells of how Judas was basically ORDERED to do what he did:

"John 13:
[21] When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
[22] Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake.
[23] Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved.
[24] Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake.
[25] He then lying on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it?
[26] Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
[27] And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
[28] Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.
[29] For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.
[30] He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.
[31] Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him."

Obviously Judas was about God's business. So it is confusing when you say that Judas and the rest of the people supposedly carrying out what you claim to be God's plan won't be in heaven.

KFC Kickin For Christ

on Jul 21, 2006

Judas was an instrument of Satan. He was called the son of perdition. Here's an excerpt from a study I put together a while back.

Perdition

(From the Latin for destruction) a term referring to the origin or goal of those who are condemned to destruction in the final judgment. It is used of Judas and of the Antichrist and his followers. It is also used to translate the Greek “destruction” elsewhere in the KJV (Phil 1:28; 1 Tim 6:9, 2 Peter 3:7)

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. See Ps 41:9

Rev 17:8, 11 The beast that you saw was and is not and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit and go into perdition and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world when they behold the beast that was, and is not and yet is.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Matt 26:24-25 The Son of man goes as it is written of him but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Then Judas, which betrayed him answered and said, Master, is it I? He said to him, You have said

Q Could Judas have been saved after all this? See also 2 Cor 7:10. Was it Godly sorrow that Judas displayed or worldly sorrow?

A Scriptures seem clear that he went into perdition. Both he and Peter betrayed him but while Peter took the road of repentance back to Christ, Judas took the road of destruction and pride and backed away from Christ taking his own life.

Now Adam and Eve....they did not have any choice in being the first humans born into the family of God...that's election. They did have a choice after being born to either obey and honor God....or not. That's freewill.

You Baker, were born into a family and you had no choice to be put in that particular family. That's election. Once in the family you had the choice to love, honor and obey your parents. That's freewill.

It's the same with the spiritual.

Ionolast

on Jul 21, 2006

And herein lies the utter "brilliance" of MythicalMino....with nothing to say other than a idiotic statement of insult....

"AN idiotic statement." Idiot.

MythicalMino

on Jul 21, 2006

And herein lies the utter "brilliance" of MythicalMino....with nothing to say other than a idiotic statement of insult....

"AN idiotic statement." Idiot.

haha....hmmm....a typo on my part, and I am the idiot...whatever.....go back to your "greater than the Christians" world

Ionolast

on Jul 22, 2006

go back to your "greater than the Christians" world

Good idea.

Myrrander

on Jul 23, 2006

He'd say "Geez, don't nail me up to this."

or maybe

"Eli, Eli, lama sabacthani."

UBoB

on Jul 23, 2006

If you believe a lot of what has been written in this thread he'd probably just say, "Well Dad, looks like everything is going according to plan."

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